/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Russia and China are large and resource-diverse enough that they can function comfortably as self-contained economies without external trade if they choose to. Smaller countries do not have that luxury. They are inextricably embedded in international trade and to have the world economic hegemon blocking them from trade is to have a boot on their necks.

>>483431
I agree resource independence is a big deal, but shouldn't that "trickle down" in a way. Russia for example has every incentive to trade with everybody that is being sanctioned by the US.

A more general point, the rise of capitalism happened to some degree because the bourgoisie could bypass all the economic restrictions the monarchs tried to impose on them. Shouldn't that still apply in the context of sanctions as well ?

They didn't "do a democracy" they had a faux election. You're tangling all the issues into one.

>>483431
Actually it seems that China doesn't have very good oil and gas resources, and is heavily dependent on Middle Eastern oil at the moment. Maybe resource independence only applies to Russia.

>>483484
dude lol

they tried to coop Maduro twice
twice they had people committing what is basically high treason
you know, falsely declaring them selves as the president while being a cia sock-puppet

Maduro let it slide. Venezuela probably is the only country in the world where shit like that does not end with a death-squat. Venezuelan democracy must be extremely robust.

>>483485
They're nearing completion of a new gas-pipeline between China and Russia, i think it's called Power of Siberia Two. So their gas supply is probably solid relatively soon.

China does have substantial domestic oil production, so they wouldn't run completely dry, but you're probably right that they do have a significant import reliance. I'm guessing from Pakistan, but don't really know, i tried investigating oil supply lines and that shit is convoluted as hell.

>>483485
>China doesn't have very good oil and gas resources
>Maybe resource independence only applies to Russia
The implication being that the neocons might be able to pull the rug from under the Chinese on energy.

Cutting off the Chinese from fossil fuels, will make them go on a mad building spree and build 1000 nuclear power-stations in the next 5 to 10 years. They level up their nuclear engineering in the process, and reach a level where they can stuff nuclear reactors into container-ships, and perhaps even trains. If they figure out how to make more power-dense nuclear beta decay batteries, it'll go into smaller stuff still. Their energy cost would plummet to almost nothing.

If the flopped micro-chip-embargo proved anything it's that "rug-pulling" the Chinese is pointless.

>>483487
>I'm guessing from Pakistan, but don't really know
It's largely from Iran, with a lesser contribution from Iraq.

>>483486
And none of that proves the veracity of the election results.

>>483486
Moreover, there was political violence and coercion the last time the results were contested. Regimes like that use outside interference among other issues as an excuse to have no accountability to the public.

>>483493
Seriously dude, give up. Venezuela has weathered US regime change schemes more gracefully than any other country.

>Regimes like that use outside interference among other issues as an excuse to have no accountability to the public.
You're talking about the US where the deep state pushed Russia-gate conspiracy nonsense to violate the political rights of social democrats and peace activists. At present they accusing people of being Iranian spies simply for opposing the genocide in Gaza. By contrast Venezuela maintained it's democratic pedigree, they even recounted the entire vote.

What makes Venezuela look good in this comparison, is that there really is foreign interference trying to overthrow the state in Venezuela, while there isn't in the US.

Basically when the empire fails to install one of it's neo-liberal puppets in power, they scream "it's not a democracy". The reality is that Venezuela is a democracy precisely because Exon-mobile doesn't get to dictate how the country is run.

As far as the level of democracy goes, Venezuela gets a solid B+, for doing a reasonably good social democracy. It's not a direct democracy which is required for an A rating. But in the international comparison they're doing pretty good.

>>483500
I always find it insane when I see someone whose concept of reality totally revolves around a political stance. At a certain point a spade has to be a spade regardless of whether it scores you points. I'm actually talking to Venezuelans on a language exchange app and none of them support Maduro, so you can do some more mental gymnastics about how loved he is and how not-faux the election was.

I never implied Russian interference should negate someone's political opinions, nor did I approbe of what the US has done to Venezuela. That's a false characterization but I guess it occurred automatically due to tribalistic thinking.

>>483500
By the way, the amount of people who have fled Venezuela is massive, and I doubt they were too fond of Maduro either.

>>483511
>I'm actually talking to Venezuelans on a language exchange app and none of them support Maduro, so you can do some more mental gymnastics about how loved he is and how not-faux the election was.
Anecdotal assertions don't impress me, especially not on an anonymous forum.

>>483511
>I'm actually talking to Venezuelans on a language exchange app and none of them support Maduro
So you have an example of people who freely express their opposition to the current Venezuelan government, doesn't that imply democratic freedom to dissent ?

Or are you trying to imply that because you talked to somebody that does not support Maduro that Venezuelans generally don't? That would be quite the illogical leap.

>>483512
>By the way, the amount of people who have fled Venezuela is massive, and I doubt they were too fond of Maduro either.
The US wages economic war against Venezuela, wrecking it's economy and causing economic emigration. You can't blame Maduro for the effects of the US's foreign policy. Unless you're trying to say that it's democracy if the US can bully other countries.

>>483514
>Anecdotal assertions don't impress me, especially not on an anonymous forum.
Anecdotes are week evidence in general. That does not improve if you know who's anecdote it is.

>>483516
Hello. I'm the guy who's speaking against dictatorships.

Because it's impossible to survey everyone in a country you have to take samples of the population. The problem with my example is that a language learning app might not represent the general population. It could skew too young or too liberal, for example. A less biased way to see how people are voting is to conduct an exit poll, which means surveying people as they leave the voting station, if I'm not mistaken. Would Maduro allow a credible organization, or anyone for that matter, to conduct an exit poll?

>>483514
That's fine. When you conduct your own research, remember that legitimate studies involve looking for information that contradicts previously held assumptions.

>>483515
Do you think expressing dissent on an app is the same as having a fair and honest election? If so, that demonstrates a confused notion of what democracy is.

>Everything is because of the US.
Dictators will use US sanctions and aggressions to justify everything from killing the opposition to simply not giving them a fair shot. Acknowledging this is not the same as supporting the sanctions or aggressions. After all, aren't we common people who have little to no say over whether our governments impose sanctions or wage war? If you're a Venezuelan you can't even be assured your vote will count. The electoral college in the US isn't a great situation either.

You said the US suppresses social democrats by calling them dissidents and Russian operatives. Social democrats don't approve of Maduro because he's neither democratic nor good for his people. Many leftist leaders in South America disapprove of him. In other South American countries leftists can actually win elections rather than pretending to, and they naturally take pride in this. Leftists who pretend to have fair elections are one of the reasons socialism went awfully in the twentieth century and has a bad name.

When right wingers tried to overturn the 2020 presidential election in the US we were able to both identify their half-assed plot and know the real results. My hope is that other countries are able to do this too, whether the attempt to change the results is carried out by a left or right wing party. My other hope is that leftwing parties who have respect for peace, social wellbeing, liberty, and democracy consistently win elections around the world. That is the position of the social democrats.

>>483521
>Hello. I'm the guy who's speaking against dictatorships.
The media has called every Venezuelan president a dictator since Hugo Chavez nationalized Venezuela's oil, after the Chavismo political revolution. I basically think you're echo-ing Exxon Mobiles media chorus.

I think Venezuela's system leans more democratic than most countries because they have both a national assembly and people's assemblies, the latter is very grass-routes.

>The problem with my example is that a language learning app might not represent the general population.
That and you didn't even talk to everybody on the app, so your view isn't even representative of all the app users.

>Would Maduro allow a credible organization, or anyone for that matter, to conduct an exit poll?
I don't know but there's probably already international observers present, and the only reason the news isn't talking about those is because they didn't report irregularities. Since that didn't fit the narrative it gets ignored. You can send an additional polling org, and the same shit will happen to their report, if it doesn't fit the narrative.

>Do you think expressing dissent on an app is the same as having a fair and honest election? If so, that demonstrates a confused notion of what democracy is.
You are the one that wanted to quantify Venezuelan democracy on the basis of "app-talk", i just flipped it around to make you disprove your own premise. Don't take this as mean-spirited, i don't think there was another way to make you re-consider.

>Dictators will use US sanctions and aggressions to justify everything from killing the opposition to simply not giving them a fair shot.
Most Dictators are compliant vassals that do what Washington tells them to do. Sanctions and aggression are very frequently directed at countries that do democracy that prioritizes the interests of the population over that of empire. In fact every single country in Latin America that does democracy gets attacked either by economic war-fare like sanctions or by CIA regime change operations, and every single of those democratic leaders get invariably labeled a dictator.

You have given me no reason to think Maduro is a dictator. And may i point out that Maduro did NOT have Juan Guaido executed, despite him committing treason. May I also point out that most countries that are considered unquestionably democratic would have executed him.

>Acknowledging this is not the same as supporting the sanctions or aggressions.
I disagree, once the imperial machine has designated a country as "the enemy" , that's the queue to halt all criticisms and negative commentary of said country. You're signalling consent to coop Venezuela if you call Maduro a dictator or say Venezuela is undemocratic. That's what those words mean, regardless of your intentions.

>You said the US suppresses social democrats by calling them dissidents and Russian operatives.
Yes, it's fucking McCarthyism again.

>Many leftist leaders in South America disapprove of him.
I really don't care, many people disapproved of Muamar Qaddafi, then the neocons overthrew him and Libya went from the nicest country in Africa to a complete hell hole with slave markets and raging civil wars. Total break down of organized society, unleashing unimaginable suffering. They would do that to Venezuela too if they got their way.

>one of the reasons socialism
>in the twentieth century
>has a bad name.
begin tangent
**Except that it doesn't. The Soviets had an excellent reputation in the world, the Russians are revered to this day because of that legacy. The demonization of the Soviets only took hold in the west, most of the world thinks we're brainwashed crazies when it comes to history from the cold war era.

The Soviets did not have a model democracy, which is hardly surprising for a country born in the fires of the 2 world wars. Just try to remember that without them democracy would've been extinguished by fascism.**
end tangent

In conclusion, you're trashing Venezuela and you're only argument is that some randos on a app told you they don't like the current president of Venezuela. Why on earth do you think that would be persuasive ??

>>483521
>legitimate studies involve looking for information that contradicts previously held assumptions
Says who? You? Another assertion you haven't managed to justify. A good study doesn't fish for contradictions, it is interested in obtaining unbiased objective evidence.

>a confused notion of what democracy is
Everyone in here who presumes that elections are anything approaching democracy. Once again I shall remind them.

>>483430
>corporate shithole th@ is gunning down local communists (socdems)
>doing a democracy
kek, off 2 the wall you go fiftoid